but there are no tribes of people who have subsisted on veganism for long periods of time, how do we know it’s healthy?

Actually there are…

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/todays-paper/tp-life/a-secret-the-himalayas-hold/article2204749.ece

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But why do you want to change me and my values…

I never said that. If clean water, clean air, full forests, healthy bodies, enough food for everyone are not part of your value system, that’s fine, you are the only person who can define your value system. There is nothing really more to talk about. I share about our food choices and their effect on our surroundings because yes, it matters to me. What we eat collectively creates the world we live in. People will make their choices, as long as people are aware of the consequences, that’s really my aim in having these discussions. My goal isn’t to change your value systems, my goal is share just how destructive some of our habits actually are. That’s it. I’m all for people having homes and employment despite what they eat. Absolutely. Everyone deserves a fair shot. I just also think that information should be spread about how our choices affect others.

But humans are at the center of the universe

It’s unfortunate but I see this all of the time. People claiming that human beings are the apex of all of creation.

So ultimately we humans believe that animals are resources, how is it then, that most find animal factory farming monstrous then?

Some claim humans have been using animals since the beginning of time, and why should we ever think about changing?

Do you really believe that if we have always used animals for, food, shelter, clothing, that that justifies it as sane or good? In the face currently of ecological collapse on multiple fronts –oceanic and all lands?

Humans have always been at war with one another since as long as we are aware of, does that make war good or sane?

Humans have traditionally had much lower life spans, about half of what we have today, does that make shorter life spans sane or good?

Today, our extent to animal manipulation is much more than it ever has been, are you then against this? Animal testing for pharmaceuticals, make-up, house hold products, random experimental designs for ‘science’.

To what extent do you believe animals more resemble plants or rocks than they do humans? To what extent do you believe that animals have no capacity to care for themselves or others or their life? To what extent are Humans more aware, more conscious, more able than animals?

We just happen to be really good with tools, apart from that, I only actually see animals being often times, much more intelligent than us. We are the only species, who has managed to shift the ecosystem so much, that not only are we annihilating our own species, but we are bringing just about every other species down with us. If that isn’t a huge failure of intelligence, I’m not sure what is.

Just because something is weaker than us, I’m not sure how that justifies us, making full use of it. It’s the patriarchal mindset, use what can be used for your own means. Use other races for slaves, because you can, use woman and children for sex and labor without their permission because you can. Use animals for all of your needs, because you can. Use the world and its resources for your needs in excess because you can, Take from the poor, the sick, the helpless and the weak, because they are vulnerable, and it will keep you in power.

This is the mindset of many of the dominant cultures of the world today, They have hidden the messages so cleverly, yet they are still so bold and vibrant since, these are the actions unfortunately much more common among humans than the choice of compassion on this earth.

Our societies have successfully taught humans that this is the normal way, the only way, to gain strength, to gain fortune.

However, what is true compassion, what does living in an ecosphere mean. What is true connection. We live in a world that hardly anyone dare enter, or attempt to understand. We are trapped in the mundane everyday existence of cleaning, working, driving, using our gadgets, absorbing ourselves in made up stories projected onto screens. We are numb. Yet the mystery of the universe, the divine in all creation is here, waiting to be discovered in the minute occurrences that we too often ignore on a daily basis.

Yet, if we choose to listen, if we choose to be present, we can find this unshakable propensity of wisdom, in nature, we are not limited to the spoken words of humans throughout the ages, of course they would be telling the story with the creature of their choice (their race, gender and religion of human) in the center, but that hardly is anything but a boastful lie, to imagine the world as only full to the extent of that one component. Humans can’t exist without the functions of the ecosystem on planet earth, we are hardly important.

We in fact, are so weak, so fragile, so small in the grand scheme of things. To believe humans are at the center of the stage above and beyond all other life. It’s the same mindset as the belief that the Sun rotated around the Earth, claiming everything is only about us. So arrogant, so boastful, so untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfP-XBUbMvs

But what if we all went vegan… what happens to all of the animals??

Oh the classic question!!

Not sure why I haven’t gotten this one yet!!

and my response:

the truth is although, it’s a vegan’s dream for everyone to become vegan overnight, it wouldn’t happen. Things happen gradually on planet earth (well for the most part). And even if everyone went vegan overnight, we’d find a compassionate way to deal with the animals. Obviously there isn’t enough land for all of them to thrive on, so we would do the best we could at rescuing the few that we can, onto sanctuaries, and the rest we would most likely need to euthanize. But that would likely never happen, because as things happen slowly, so does everything else. So as ppl begin to eat less and less meat, human beings breed less and less animals. Until no breeding is required anymore. Whatever animals are left, would certainly be able to live out their days at that point, because likely there will be so few left. The only reason we have millions is the crazy rate that we breed them. Because we are also killing hundreds of thousands a day… which means we are breeding hundreds of thousands a day. http://thethinkingvegan.com/…/veganism-and-spirituality/ — you can see the rate we kill them here.

But where does it say that spiritually it’s the best thing to do?

But for clarity: where is it stated that veganism is The Way for humanity? Throughout ages omnivorous people have had great impact on others as spiritual and non-spiritual leaders. As I remember a reading Edgar Cayce gave to a vegetarian woman, she was told by the higher self that “she should keep being vegetarian if her soul asked her, however, being vegetarian is not a spiritual requirement”. ——

This is how I responded, I thought this question was interesting because they were wanting examples of spiritual people who suggested this kind of lifestyle. Which could essentially be anyone. I’ve never actually been asked this question before it almost rather through me off guard.. like oh wait, you don’t want some heavy science journal article?? :

well where is stated that meat eating is the way for humanity? Is it possible that we’ve gotten into a habit that is actually only causing us more harm? There’s also a lot of spiritual documents that do advocate eating plants only. Dr. Gabriel Cousens has studied Essene literature extensively and has been living off of raw foods for over 30 years. His youthful appearance in his 70’s, I think speaks to the strength of eating this way. Maybe there was a time that eating meat made sense for humans. And it’s possible that in some locations among some people, it also makes the most sense, perhaps for inuits in Alaska.. I’m giving an example. Although it’s been documented that even for these people there are health costs associated with this very high meat intake. In terms of spirituality, there are several individuals who do support being vegan in terms of mind and body cleanliness. In doing so you are not contributing to the industrialized suffering of millions of animals, in addition to contribution to the greatest greenhouse gas source, biggest water pollutor, and biggest reason why we are losing our rainforests. Again, the best, easiest source to learn more about this is Cowspiracy: The Sustainability Secret. I’ve been studying this stuff for years, so I was very familiar with it, however this documentary visually makes it very easy to follow and see all the first hand literature and interviews that goes into these facts. But yes, so to name a few.. http://www.erinpavlina.com/…/the-connection-between…/ and http://www.serv-online.org/Meria-Heller.htm and http://thethinkingvegan.com/…/veganism-and-spirituality/ Personally if there is a spiritual teacher who is not vegan. I can’t take them seriously. If Jesus himself came back to planet earth and told people that eating small amounts of meat was okay, I would turn and walk away. For me there is just no justification on a spiritual level that makes it okay, when as a species we can more than thrive on plants alone. There’s a lot of ways we can screw it up. by not getting enough greens or overconsuming fats, sugars, processed foods… or just not enough in general. But I’ve done enough research to know that it’s more than just possible. It saves lives. not only the lives of the animals and the health of the planet, but I’ve seen tumors disapear before my eyes, on ppl taking these foods seriously, I’ve seen my own pre-cancerous cells magically erase themselves from my own lab results after following these practices. I’ve seen my father in law, reduce his medicine by more than half, as a diabetic switching to this lifestyle. I mean I can go on. the miracles are endless. We just have to believe, and let go of this paradigm we’ve been trapped under for so long.

But its human nature

“To many animals, nature is a very cruel, harsh, and unforgiving experience. The planet “Mother Earth” has always been Predators vs Prey. As humans it seems like we have just followed these rules of nature… ”

well its the story that’s been perpetuated the most by society, yet the story that has been painted by a multitude of philosophers and scientists before us is a little more broad, there is also a large amount of cooperation, animals that work together to make life easier for the both of them. There is also compassionate acts by humans and animals with no apparent survival reason. — Or maybe it’s just less on the surface since cooperation among groups can ultimately lead to better survival. Obviously predator and prey relationships are apparent, however there are also many other types of relationships, detrivores, scavengers, photosynthesizing organisms, chemoheterotrophs — organisms that survive off of all sorts of chemicals — sulfur, nitrogen etc. microorganisms are the oldest creatures on the planet, and have much better adapted themselves to all environments than we have. We have largely followed a slim pickings set of traits found in nature. Namely, depleting resources faster than they are able to regenerate at the cost of our own value of life. In addition to, naming ourselves top predator. These both are choices, not facts or necessities for being human on earth. Yet it is definitely a necessity for a diversity of relationships and a wise use of resources for the survival of certain organisms on the planet.