“The idea that we must squeeze every bit of agricultural efficiency out of the land is what led to the current crisis. Raising animals is a way of coexisting with other species and having a more diverse ecosystem. I feel like moving toward purely plant-based agriculture would render animals obsolete, and make the human population much more dense than would be healthy. Ideally, we would let much of the land go wild again, but if it must be agricultural, why not let other animals share it with us?”
The vegan Rebuttal:
With our currently population as is, it is actually impossible to eat meat/animal products sustainably unless we drastically reduce the amount of animal products we consume– some say about 2oz per week or something if it were to be sustainable.
The top of the food chain has been completely falsified by humans. We idealize it so much, to the extent that we routinely hunt, kill and trophy-ize the real top predators (who we’d have absolutely no shot against with no weapons) and imprison all of their prey, and artificially inseminate them, so that we can house them for generations for our consumption. We have created them, to the numbers we have. The world most likely wouldn’t change vegan overnight, although it would be the biggest dream of a vegan to have everything to change over night, but realistically it will be a slow decline– even if it’s not by choice.. it will be from the lack of resources to care for the animals, and their products will become more and more expensive (check out ‘cowspiracy’)
If we stopped killing animals, predators would most likely re-populate and keep the rest of the populations in check. The real overrunning problem, is humans, we are pretty much a virus at present moment with the rate we are destroying ecosystems. Perhaps some animal needs to start eating us?? If this argument was to be taken seriously that is.
That people LOVEEEEE to make up arguments!
And they will use their ‘wonderful’ logic to justify why eating meat is SOOO much healthier for the planet and requires fewer resources.. This is fantasy.. this is a made up world in their head.. and yes IT DOES get frustrating at times.. especially when you work for 2-3 hours on a rebuttal that HAS ABSOLUTELY NO FOUNDATION. Im not sure why I did it. I think because I hadn’t noticed it on my page
1- I didn’t want people to actually believe him — because non-vegans mind you will believe anything that makes them feel good about themselves
2- I didn’t want to delete it and make it seem as though I had no answer for his outlandish comment.
Anyway… here it is.
Deibiddo Shirubāman One must figure the value of the calories and what must be put into the land. In that case, this vegan meme is leaving out a lot of data, which is common for vegan propaganda.
You can certainly raise one cow per year on an acre, which would yield about ~800 lbs of beef ( plus some products like leather and milk which have additional value )
800 pounds x 800 calories = 640,000 calories in one year ( i’m leaving out the amount of calories in the milk here ).
You wouldn’t have to water the land or do much if you were raising the cow on the grass.
Now with tomatoes, you’re going to get 3,280,000 calories ( if this 40,000lbs value is correct ), but you’re going to have to water the entire acre every day. You’re going to have to spray some form of pesticides and other chemicals. You’re going to have to add fertilizer. This drives up the cost of those calories dramatically.
So, when i go to buy food after all costs are integrated, i will have to buy about 8lbs. of tomatoes at $8 total in order to get the same calories out of $3 of 1lb. of ground beef.
Economics and resource wise, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to put a cow on that acre. Yes, tomatoes can produce more calories per acre, but they require exponentially more external resources which must be taken from somewhere else.
Esther T So for 1 grass fed cow, it’s recommended to have 10-12 acres.
— This is for california where grazing is year round.
Depending on how much winter a region experiences, they could have 1 cow per 3-5 acres, however they would need to supplement the cow with food from outside the operation. (also check out the film, ‘cowspiracy’)
A steer, must eat 21 pounds of grain protein in order to produce one pound of beef.. so 21 lbs of grain x 800 = something like 16000 — Depending of course how much the animal can get from forage is wildly variable — and others who have made that mistake can end up in a lot of debt.
(Yes 800lbs to be generoushttp://smallfarms.ifas.ufl.edu/…/grassfed_beef/walter.pdf,
meat produced from a cow is often 700-800lbs — because the whole cow won’t be totally comprised of cuts that people eat. So for that one cow, divided by 10 acres (to get lbs per acre)– is actually less than 100 lbs per acre. )
So, if we were to get grain from outside the operation to raise this animal.. how much would we need?
1 acre can actually produce about 150 bushels of corn, which translates to about 10,500lbs —- meaning you’d actually need 2 acres in addition to whatever land you have for your animal — (and grains are often chemical/fertilizer intensive– and pricey — .. not always the case but more often than not– comes to about 1400 dollars to buy 300 bushels of corn for one cow — nonorganic)…http://extension.missouri.edu/publicat…/DisplayPub.aspx…
Not all properties have running water or suitable climates to avoid irrigation. Cows will need water, depending on circumstances the cow will need 3-30 gallons of water per day.https://beef.unl.edu/amountwatercowsdrink and that doesn’t include the irrigation needed to maintain the pasture.
Which actually pasture, compared to small vegetables, needs more water — check out page 10 for a chart:
— If you use the cow for meat — you won’t be getting the milk — milk production would be a whole different set of values, — for the sake of this discussion, we can keep it to meat, since that is what the graphic is on.
And again, back to grass fed, I found this excerpt from a meateaters guide.. if you are apprehensive of figures on vegan pages.
“Additionally, grass-fed cows must be raised for a much longer time to reach full weight than those that are fed a diet of grain, growth hormones and antibiotics to speed growth. The average feedlot steer is slaughtered at about 14 months, while many grass-fed cows live 20-to-30 months, depending on the quality of their forage. Keeping and maintaining an animal for the extra 6-to-18 months adds to the expense, including the cost of hay to feed the animals over the winter”. – See more at:http://www.ewg.org/meateat…/frequently-asked-questions/…
“Now with tomatoes, you’re going to get 3,280,000 calories ( if this 40,000lbs value is correct ), but you’re going to have to water the entire acre every day. You’re going to have to spray some form of pesticides and other chemicals. You’re going to have to add fertilizer. This drives up the cost of those calories dramatically.”
— Not necessarily, depending on the type of floor management you have, you may even be able to get away with watering 1x per week. I was able to do this at my farm, because I mulched so heavily — and no it’s completely not necessary to use chemicals and pesticides if you manage the property correctly, I don’t use them. And many options for adding nutrients back to the soil are free or pretty cheap (I use old cardboard, newspapers, hay and plant legumes for nitrogen)
“So, when i go to buy food after all costs are integrated, i will have to buy about 8lbs. of tomatoes at $8 total in order to get the same calories out of $3 of 1lb. of ground beef.”
These numbers are pretty relative — are you growing your own cow.. vs your own tomato? Because that is going to change things pretty dramatically. Especially if the government isn’t paying you to own that cow… check out (mind you tomatoes are hardly if at all subsidized– check out this —
In terms of calories.. the quality of each calorie is definitely going to be different, when eating vegetables v. meat and not to mention health care costs if you were to value meat over vegetables more often than not. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8610089)
But in terms of what you are giving your body when you eat vegetables — you are giving your body fiber, micronutrients,healthy fats, and protein without the negative effects of cholesterol, and much saturated fats. Check out this note for more informationhttps://www.facebook.com/notes/byron-vegan-delsignore/57-health-benefits-of-going-vegan/1441820126102030and also
The next time an argumentative comment is posted without properly cited references (preferably legitimate studies or university/governmental websites please), it will be deleted. I don’t really have time to rebuttal made up arguments.
The following two quotes were taken from Facebook:
Humans are carnivores and have been so for millions of years, and need to interact with our surroundings.
Humans only choose to go meat free because they “love animals so much”
I responded with the following:
the argument can go both ways. To say that we have been eating this way for millions of years is a stretch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8 and http://www.ivu.org/history/native_americans.html . And we kind of are designed more for plants if you think about it http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/shattering-the-meat-myth_b_214390.html . When you kill a bison with your bare hands no weapons, and prefer to eat it raw including bones and fur… but not before it’s rotted for a couple of days and no seasonings–( because seriously who eats those bits of plant food anyway??)… seriously let me know– at that point you will have thoroughly convinced me otherwise. We see in color — and are attracted to bright colors (marketers take full advantage of this), our hands are perfect for grabbing and picking fruits and vegetables. Our intestines are long like other herbivores actually (carnivores have short intestines so they can quickly get rid of all that rotting flesh they eat). We don’t have sharp claws to seize and hold down prey. Canine teeth actually don’t mean much, hippos have the largest canines in the world, but they are fully vegetarian (check out these ones too http://listverse.com/2010/01/10/top-10-herbivores-you-probably-want-to-avoid/). We are animals, and we do have massive endurance.. but actually most animals do. Taking animal products out of diets can clear up illnesses, cancer (esp colon, breast and prostate), heart disease, strokes, diabetes… the list goes on. It’s pretty interesting. definitely worth some research. To say that people who dont eat meat.. don’t eat it because “they love animals too much” is partly true.. but just doesn’t quite cut the cake. It’s the biggest impact in terms of environmental protection that you can take (check out https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cowspiracy-the-sustainability-secret), it’s the quick route to better health– many individuals have taken full advantage of this and have set up health retreats around the world and have massive success reversing all kinds of lifestyle disease among others, and yes.. it is a little more compassionate to not treat other living beings as if they don’t feel pain… It’s not about being perfect or not being a part of life. I am just as much a part of the creation and the destruction process of life every day — I garden, I farm, I do all sorts of things that are both harmful or helpful to the surroundings. But if there is one very simple thing that I can do that significantly benefits the world at large, why not? Animal agriculture is the number one cause of what’s tearing down the rainforests, polluting our waters, killing off ocean, wildlife, and making us unhealthy. The more people in on this secret… the better, that’s how I see it.