Vegans think they are more superior and enlightened

It may come across that way, since a message is trying to be conveyed, but think about it this way: everyone is a genius at something. When it comes to an electrician coming to your home to fix some connection, there wouldn’t be judgment as to why they are trying to do this, or explain something to you about how to properly maintain something. Largely, vegan information has been stifled by big business and governments regarding the benefits of a plant based diet in our world and for our health. Just like anyone else who is passionate about a topic, vegans are adamant that this information is a human right, that all humans ought to have access to important information regarding their health and happiness in order to make the best choices to what fits their values best. A lot of people are pretty disgusted to see the cruelty we commit to other members of planet earth, as well as our tax money going into subsidies that ultimately add to lack of environmental regulation of CAFOs and the pollution which regularly flows out of them. There’s no doubt in my mind that you are a genius at something, and that when people talk to you about that thing, you lighten up, you want to share your experience to improve their understanding in some way. We are all guilty of this. For some reason, information regarding public health, is seen as a threat to the patterns and habits we’ve developed over a lifetime. It doesn’t help to shoot down the messenger… the problems will remain. Whether or not anyone speaks about this stuff… we are continually affected by it. In ways of pollution, in ways of health care costs, in ways of cruelty to beings who have not done any action directly against us.
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But we shouldn’t be more land efficient…

“The idea that we must squeeze every bit of agricultural efficiency out of the land is what led to the current crisis.  Raising animals is a way of coexisting with other species and having a more diverse ecosystem. I feel like moving toward purely plant-based agriculture would render animals obsolete, and make the human population much more dense than would be healthy. Ideally, we would let much of the land go wild again, but if it must be agricultural, why not let other animals share it with us?”

The vegan Rebuttal:

This is a really interesting point, I think that it would be largely unlikely that as a society we would move towards plant based agriculture. But who knows, maybe it could be the case.  And if we did, at least what I have seen among many vegan friends is the interest to give back.  So converting farms into sanctuaries, and allowing the joy of human and animal relationships, as relationships, rather than viewing our relationship to them as them serving a commodity for us.  So I can totally agree with sharing the land with the animals. I absolutely would be on par with putting limits on development. And keeping a certain percentage wildland. Like anything, there are always vested interests for land use.  Currently humans are already pretty dense in many areas.  But in the case of less ranchers and the like — it is definitely possible that there would be less monetary influence to keep these lands open lands.  However this wouldn’t become a problem for many more years to come. Currently if there are 70 billion land animals, if we were to transition to plant based, it wouldnt be overnight, actually more realistically would take years if not decades, and I guess some complicated model could be developed for what the rate of decrease would be, and how many animals would then be left over from the whole process. But ultimately farmers would stop breeding these animals.  If we are currently at 7 billion and animals are currently at 70billion, and lets say 10 billion animals live with us, you know maybe it actually wouldn’t change much. Current ranches could stay and become sanctuaries, while factory farms would be out of business (which hardly account for much room, since they store animals in very close and small proximities) and agricultural land currently allotted to feed factory farmed animals could be converted to forests for recreation and food for us.  Whether animals are here or not, it seems to me that humans at a certain population (depending on whatever space available) will have to deal with density issues.  I think we would certainly benefit if we valued open space and wild lands more.

But what about sustainable, local, organic, and humane animal products?

With our currently population as is, it is actually impossible to eat meat/animal products sustainably unless we drastically reduce the amount of animal products we consume– some say about 2oz per week or something if it were to be sustainable.

And I also don’t believe that any animals being farmed is humane.  I think the word ‘farmed’ is a nice word for forcing animals to live outside of their natural or preferred habitat for human purposes. Which I don’t believe is ethical.  Yes to some extent we have become responsible for all of the animals we have bred into this world, and because of that I do think that things like animal sanctuaries are positive because the intention is that they are made for the animals, and it’s not based on the exploitment of animals for human desires.  And I guess I don’t believe that animal food is healthy for us in the slightest.  Everything about our physiology is more alike herbivores than carnivores. Yes we are relatively omnivores — but most omnivores have something like less than 5% of protein from animal sources in their diets — its not the bulk of it.   However, the amount of meat the average westerner eats, is much more than this percentage and is causing a calamity of health epidemics that all tax payers have to pay into.. even those who choose not to eat meat.  In addition to being the biggest destroyer of the forests and the biggest contributor to global warming.
Hunting may provide for a sustainable source of meat, however the way men hunt typically isn’t.  Especially as it causes a cascade of other environmental issues. Such as hunters ‘claiming’ rights to the deer or the elk, and therefore justifying the killing of wolves, and other top predators, and then when hunting the elk or the deer they typically choose the strongest and the biggest — where wolves and coyotes typically choose the weakest and slowest out of the deer, therefore strengthening the overall community, while humans tend to do the opposite.
But personally, I can’t justify killing an animal, just as I can’t justify killing a person.  I can live without it, so why would i inflict violence and suffering on someone else, if its unnecessary. I believe, that the more,  we are able to come out of these foods, the more we are able to influence society at large, away from unsustainable habits. Because even for those who do believe in organic, and local animal products — they typically don’t veer away when offered animal products which aren’t.  And this only reinforces the deep cultural trenches of our food choices and how they’ve shaped everything from our medical system to our government.
I had a professor who sat in for a year  for his sabbatical, it was either congress or I can’t remember exactly , but his job was to advise them on agriculture and the environment.  Basically his whole being there was a joke, he said the lobbyists ran everything.
I don’t know. that’s where I stand on the issue.  Everyone chooses the life which they want to see perpetuated, and I have just come to the point where I don’t see anything good in perpetuating the suffering of animals for our own sake.

But animals will overrun the world if we don’t eat them!!!

The top of the food chain has been completely falsified by humans.  We idealize it so much, to the extent that we routinely hunt, kill and trophy-ize the real top predators (who we’d have absolutely no shot against with no weapons) and imprison all of their prey, and artificially inseminate them, so that we can house them for generations for our consumption.  We have created them, to the numbers we have.  The world most likely wouldn’t change vegan overnight, although it would be the biggest dream of a vegan to have everything to change over night, but realistically it will be a slow decline– even if it’s not by choice.. it will be from the lack of resources to care for the animals, and their products will become more and more expensive (check out ‘cowspiracy’)

If we stopped killing animals, predators would most likely re-populate and keep the rest of the populations in check.  The real overrunning problem, is humans, we are pretty much a virus at present moment with the rate we are destroying ecosystems.  Perhaps some animal needs to start eating us?? If this argument was to be taken seriously that is.

The one hard thing about being vegan

That people LOVEEEEE to make up arguments!

And they will use their ‘wonderful’ logic to justify why eating meat is SOOO much healthier for the planet and requires fewer resources.. This is fantasy.. this is a made up world in their head.. and yes IT DOES get frustrating at times.. especially when you work for 2-3 hours on a rebuttal that HAS ABSOLUTELY NO FOUNDATION. Im not sure why I did it. I think because I hadn’t noticed it on my page 

1- I didn’t want people to actually believe him — because non-vegans mind you will believe anything that makes them feel good about themselves 

2- I didn’t want to delete it and make it seem as though I had no answer for his outlandish comment.  

 

Anyway… here it is. 

seriously

  • Deibiddo Shirubāman One must figure the value of the calories and what must be put into the land. In that case, this vegan meme is leaving out a lot of data, which is common for vegan propaganda.

    You can certainly raise one cow per year on an acre, which would yield about ~800 lbs of beef ( plus some products like leather and milk which have additional value )

    800 pounds x 800 calories = 640,000 calories in one year ( i’m leaving out the amount of calories in the milk here ).

    You wouldn’t have to water the land or do much if you were raising the cow on the grass.

    Now with tomatoes, you’re going to get 3,280,000 calories ( if this 40,000lbs value is correct ), but you’re going to have to water the entire acre every day. You’re going to have to spray some form of pesticides and other chemicals. You’re going to have to add fertilizer. This drives up the cost of those calories dramatically.

    So, when i go to buy food after all costs are integrated, i will have to buy about 8lbs. of tomatoes at $8 total in order to get the same calories out of $3 of 1lb. of ground beef.

    Economics and resource wise, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to put a cow on that acre. Yes, tomatoes can produce more calories per acre, but they require exponentially more external resources which must be taken from somewhere else.

     
     
    •  
      Esther T So for 1 grass fed cow, it’s recommended to have 10-12 acres.
      coststudies.ucdavis.edu/files/beefgfnc2004.pdf
      — This is for california where grazing is year round.

      Depending on how much winter a region experiences, they could have 1 cow per 3-5 acres, however they would need to supplement the cow with food from outside the operation. (also check out the film, ‘cowspiracy’) 

      For example–
      A steer, must eat 21 pounds of grain protein in order to produce one pound of beef.. so 21 lbs of grain x 800 = something like 16000 — Depending of course how much the animal can get from forage is wildly variable — and others who have made that mistake can end up in a lot of debt. 
      page http://smallfarms.ifas.ufl.edu/…/grassfed_beef/walter.pdf

      (Yes 800lbs to be generoushttp://smallfarms.ifas.ufl.edu/…/grassfed_beef/walter.pdf,
      meat produced from a cow is often 700-800lbs — because the whole cow won’t be totally comprised of cuts that people eat. So for that one cow, divided by 10 acres (to get lbs per acre)– is actually less than 100 lbs per acre. )

      So, if we were to get grain from outside the operation to raise this animal.. how much would we need?
      1 acre can actually produce about 150 bushels of corn, which translates to about 10,500lbs —- meaning you’d actually need 2 acres in addition to whatever land you have for your animal — (and grains are often chemical/fertilizer intensive– and pricey — .. not always the case but more often than not– comes to about 1400 dollars to buy 300 bushels of corn for one cow — nonorganic)…http://extension.missouri.edu/publicat…/DisplayPub.aspx

      Not all properties have running water or suitable climates to avoid irrigation. Cows will need water, depending on circumstances the cow will need 3-30 gallons of water per day.https://beef.unl.edu/amountwatercowsdrink and that doesn’t include the irrigation needed to maintain the pasture. 

      Which actually pasture, compared to small vegetables, needs more water — check out page 10 for a chart: 
      http://www.ext.colostate.edu/sam/sam-irr-guide.pdf

      — If you use the cow for meat — you won’t be getting the milk — milk production would be a whole different set of values, — for the sake of this discussion, we can keep it to meat, since that is what the graphic is on. 

      And again, back to grass fed, I found this excerpt from a meateaters guide.. if you are apprehensive of figures on vegan pages. 

      “Additionally, grass-fed cows must be raised for a much longer time to reach full weight than those that are fed a diet of grain, growth hormones and antibiotics to speed growth. The average feedlot steer is slaughtered at about 14 months, while many grass-fed cows live 20-to-30 months, depending on the quality of their forage. Keeping and maintaining an animal for the extra 6-to-18 months adds to the expense, including the cost of hay to feed the animals over the winter”. – See more at:http://www.ewg.org/meateat…/frequently-asked-questions/

      “Now with tomatoes, you’re going to get 3,280,000 calories ( if this 40,000lbs value is correct ), but you’re going to have to water the entire acre every day. You’re going to have to spray some form of pesticides and other chemicals. You’re going to have to add fertilizer. This drives up the cost of those calories dramatically.”

      — Not necessarily, depending on the type of floor management you have, you may even be able to get away with watering 1x per week. I was able to do this at my farm, because I mulched so heavily — and no it’s completely not necessary to use chemicals and pesticides if you manage the property correctly, I don’t use them. And many options for adding nutrients back to the soil are free or pretty cheap (I use old cardboard, newspapers, hay and plant legumes for nitrogen) 

      “So, when i go to buy food after all costs are integrated, i will have to buy about 8lbs. of tomatoes at $8 total in order to get the same calories out of $3 of 1lb. of ground beef.”

      These numbers are pretty relative — are you growing your own cow.. vs your own tomato? Because that is going to change things pretty dramatically. Especially if the government isn’t paying you to own that cow… check out (mind you tomatoes are hardly if at all subsidized– check out this —
      http://usmfreepress.org/…/meat-subsidies-strip-other…/)

      In terms of calories.. the quality of each calorie is definitely going to be different, when eating vegetables v. meat and not to mention health care costs if you were to value meat over vegetables more often than not. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8610089)
      But in terms of what you are giving your body when you eat vegetables — you are giving your body fiber, micronutrients,healthy fats, and protein without the negative effects of cholesterol, and much saturated fats. Check out this note for more informationhttps://www.facebook.com/notes/byron-vegan-delsignore/57-health-benefits-of-going-vegan/1441820126102030and also 
      http://www.webmd.com/…/plant-based-diet-for-heart
      The next time an argumentative comment is posted without properly cited references (preferably legitimate studies or university/governmental websites please), it will be deleted. I don’t really have time to rebuttal made up arguments.

Carnivorous humans vs. “animal loving humans”

The following two quotes were taken from Facebook:

Humans are carnivores and have been so for millions of years, and need to interact with our surroundings.  

Humans only choose to go meat free because they “love animals so much”

I responded with the following:

the argument can go both ways.  To say that we have been eating this way for millions of years is a stretch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8 and http://www.ivu.org/history/native_americans.html . And we kind of are designed more for plants if you think about it http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/shattering-the-meat-myth_b_214390.html .  When you kill a bison with your bare hands no weapons, and prefer to eat it raw including bones and fur… but not before it’s rotted for a couple of days and no seasonings–( because seriously who eats those bits of plant food anyway??)… seriously let me know– at that point you will have thoroughly convinced me otherwise.  We see in color — and are attracted to bright colors (marketers take full advantage of this), our hands are perfect for grabbing and picking fruits and vegetables. Our intestines are long like other herbivores actually (carnivores have short intestines so they can quickly get rid of all that rotting flesh they eat). We don’t have sharp claws to seize and hold down prey.  Canine teeth actually don’t mean much, hippos have the largest canines in the world, but they are fully vegetarian (check out these ones too http://listverse.com/2010/01/10/top-10-herbivores-you-probably-want-to-avoid/). We are animals, and we do have massive endurance.. but actually most animals do.  Taking animal products out of diets can clear up illnesses, cancer (esp colon, breast and prostate), heart disease, strokes, diabetes… the list goes on.  It’s pretty interesting.  definitely worth some research. To say that people who dont eat meat.. don’t eat it because “they love animals too much” is partly true.. but just doesn’t quite cut the cake.  It’s the biggest impact in terms of environmental protection that you can take (check out https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cowspiracy-the-sustainability-secret), it’s the quick route to better health– many individuals have taken full advantage of this and have set up health retreats around the world and have massive success reversing all kinds of lifestyle disease among others, and yes.. it is a little more compassionate to not treat other living beings as if they don’t feel pain… It’s not about being perfect or not being a part of life. I am just as much a part of the creation and the destruction process of life every day — I garden, I farm, I do all sorts of things that are both harmful or helpful to the surroundings. But if there is one very simple thing that I can do that significantly benefits the world at large, why not? Animal agriculture is the number one cause of what’s tearing down the rainforests, polluting our waters, killing off ocean, wildlife, and making us unhealthy.  The more people in on this secret… the better, that’s how I see it.

followed by:

All I’m saying is that people who don’t eat meat, are largely misunderstood. Since, people who do eat meat, aren’t interested to thoroughly research a new position in fear of a change in their food preferences, which would primarily inconvenience them, in having to question their ‘tastes’, ‘identity’ , ‘mindset’, ‘habits’ or ‘rituals’